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monkey_mine

Krishnamurti, freedom, and meditation

With the KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE coming to an end soon, I thought I would start a Krishnamurti related thread, for anyone interested. 

I've been finding these videos very instructive lately-

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvXYMZKzekE&t=14s

Youtube does not allow embedding.

You can find the whole collection here-

 

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-video/what-makes-one-control-part-3-of-8.php

 

It's a series of talks  led by Krishnamurti in Malibu California with a group of apparently  "groovy" spiritual seekers. It starts with video 3, and ends I think with #8. I don't know if they ever had videos #1 and #2, but I have not found them.

These are very slow videos but Krishnamurti intentionally allows people there to sit with his questions for a long time; to think deeply about the questions. K does a lot of facepalms and head rubbing, when people parrot answers. On the other hand he actually laughs at a funny comment made by an audience member in the video above. I noticed it because I don't recall that I ever saw him laugh before.

In watching these videos I feel invited to contemplate how I would answer these questions, if I were sitting in that room. I guess that's why I like these more than other Q and A videos I've seen with Krishnamurti so far.

Lately I have been wondering about the habitual "default settings" of my mind or brain. I noticed a couple weeks ago at work that I had a preference for feeling like a victim when it appeared someone "betrayed" me and I went into thoughts of revenge. I knew this was a story I was investing in, but I enjoyed planning my revenge. No tire slashing or violence, mind you, just little ways I can dish out the workload in my favor. These thoughts now act as a barrier between me and that person. We had a good friendship before. Now it feels awkward.

I could see it was not freedom, to constrict myself into the role of victim and playing in my mind the scenario  how sweet revenge would be. The mind at work, preferring conflict, hurt, and aggression, to freedom. Seeing the contrast, the better path,  yet still preferring thoughts of revenge. Surely this is out of balance. Why should I have a preference for conflict, hurt, aggression, and revenge? Is it just habit to stay in the well worn grooves, rather than face the unknown?  And why does freedom, or the action of pulling out of those grooves, feel painful in comparison to staying in those grooves? It feels as if I have an addiction to my default settings.

Edited by monkey_mine
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I've been watching the series of conversations between him and David Bohm. They're slow and hard to follow at times (for me anyway) but packed with wisdom nuggets if you're patient enough and pay close enough attention. Thanks for posting these! 

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17 hours ago, Chimpbrain said:

I've been watching the series of conversations between him and David Bohm. They're slow and hard to follow at times (for me anyway) but packed with wisdom nuggets if you're patient enough and pay close enough attention. Thanks for posting these! 

You're welcome @Chimpbrain ! Please share your impressions about those Malibu talks.

Yeah those dialogues are really tough because I think they understand each other so well that they talk in a kind of shorthand of agreement. I think it's better to go slow with those and read them rather than listen to them. You can read them all for free on www.jkrishnamurti.org .

 

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16 hours ago, stein22501 said:

Krishnamurti vs. Gurdjieff, Go!

Apples and oranges man. No- apples and figs. Two entirely different critters.

To sum it up Gurdi-man had a method, strategy, a path to follow. Follow these instructions.

K did not give instructions, he asked questions and said you have to find out for yourself. Truth is a pathless land.

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I've really been considering this whole pathless path thing lately. Anywhere you could point me to as a starting point? Is that an oxymoron? A starting point on a pathless path... Food for thought.

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Have you guys seen this docudrama "Holy Hell"? It's on Netflix. My friend recommended it to me. It's ok, maybe 2/5 stars, but it played out in the same pattern as in every guru cult docudrama.

Watching it I bed "why are all these teens so obsessed w losing the self and enlightenment and stuff? Just relax". But as always it's cause they were closeted gays and or got diddled by their uncle and it weren't very good at sport.

so they get suckered (literally and figuratively) by this closeted gay ex porn star guru (aka guru). Pretty entertaining/sad. 

He's still operating in guru Mecca Hawaii if anyone's feeling lost. Can't remember his name, he's changed it a lot to go w his new plastic surgery faces.

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Oops, sorry I didn't reply to your post and question @stein22501. I've been thinking about this time thing  recently though so it's very relevant to me now.

To answer your question, you can start with any Krishnamurti book, they are available for easy download for free. I have not read enough yet to have favorites. If you don't like reading K, I found books in K's  "lineage" that I can recommend. "The Unmanifest Self" by Ligia Dantes, and "The Silent Question" by Tony Packer. Both teachers heavily influenced by K but perhaps a little easier to read than  K. 

 

Papaji was a powerful teacher who instructed his followers to CALL OFF THE SEARCH. Some guru types in his lineage can really turn on the juice, like Eli Jackson Bear for one. You don't have to wait for bliss or work for bliss if you can hang out with that dude. It happens before he walks into the room. It feels pretty culty around the center though. Leave critical thinking at the door. (  @TeenKonceptz® I have not seen that doc yet, but I put it in my cue, thanks)

 

One thing still puzzles me about Krishnamurti  and it relates to the paradox you mention of having a "starting point". Krishnamurti talks about bliss and unconditional freedom but says it is not a time based process. It happens instantly. Yet I still have the idea that I have made some progress, during my participation in the CHALLENGE,  in letting go of some conditioning, or in seeing truths that I have not seen before. Also  @DinduNuffin talks about re-wiring one's neural circuitry by understanding a few hundred or so of Krishnamurti's inquiries. Not that you just  follow along reading, but that you think each one through for yourself, and then, after a few hundred of these you may have the big breakthrough into a state of ongoing bliss and unconditional freedom. This also seems like a time based path, or process...

 

Anyway, I still have not had the big breakthrough, and I wonder what holds me back. It feels very difficult, even painful, to bring this meditative inquiry into ordinary daily life. No wonder so many people tap out.

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On 1/9/2017 at 5:06 AM, TremoloSkull said:

monkey i recommend listening to some darryl bailey http://darrylbailey.net/questions-answered/

 

Thanks for that recommendation. I enjoyed listening to some of his talks. Darryl has discovered/created a very pragmatic form of non-dualism. It's refreshingly ordinary. I agree with some of it, but not enough to continue to listen. The last one I listened to was called Weeping and Wailing wherein he tiresomely goes on and on ridiculing people like me.

 

I would not mind so much if I thought his premise was valid. He says because everything in our lives is always arising and passing, we can't have a permanent state of awakening, such as permanent freedom from fear or permanent happiness or bliss. But in fact we do go through permanent changes in life. At least lifetime changes. In my 20's I became a father. That does not change for the rest of my life. When I was 4 years old I ran through a glass door which left a big scar on my right wrist. Even though all the cells in my body keep dying and getting replaced, that scar remains. I lost all my baby teeth. They never came back. 

 

He says we don't really know what any of this really is and I agree. So why conclude that someone can't be permanently happy? I don't know enough to say what is not possible for a human being, so I leave that in the realm of the possible.

 

Then he throws out  references to religions saying that all the great religions agree with him. Why the appeal to authority? If we don't know what anything really is, and what makes this happening happen, and what all of this means, who cares what the religions say?  His basic premise seems to be based on asking ourselves what we can know from our own observation. Why not stay with that premise? And then he throws J. Krishnamurti into the mix, and that's another mistake to cherry pick Krishnamurti, because K definitely does not agree with the great religions and would never use that type of appeal to authority to solidify an argument. Darryl says he studied K's teaching in his bio, but the way Darryl talks, I don't think he got the message.

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On 21.11.2016 at 1:35 PM, monkey_mine said:

And why does freedom, or the action of pulling out of those grooves, feel painful in comparison to staying in those grooves?

The "painful" feeling is due to being identified as the "groover".

It feels as if I have an addiction to my default settings.

That "I" that seems to have an addiction is the root of all other addictions. "I" and "my" could be said to be the primary addiction. Life doesn't need a separate self (which is illusory to begin with) to be perfectly fine as it is. There can be a spontaneous relaxation which can reveal the nature of that self-referring habit as a mental habit only, basically.

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2 hours ago, K.O. Ok said:

The "painful" feeling is due to being identified as the "groover".

 

 

That "I" that seems to have an addiction is the root of all other addictions. "I" and "my" could be said to be the primary addiction. Life doesn't need a separate self (which is illusory to begin with) to be perfectly fine as it is. There can be a spontaneous relaxation which can reveal the nature of that self-referring habit as a mental habit only, basically.

Not only mental. Mental and physical, I think. Unconscious holding patterns in musculature and breathing keep in in place.

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43 minutes ago, monkey_mine said:

Not only mental. Mental and physical, I think. Unconscious holding patterns in musculature and breathing keep in in place.

Well the physical aspect is linked with thought patterns. And by "mental" I mean a sense that comes and goes. It's a perception. Any sensation isn't felt to be implying a separate self when the primary thought form isn't in place. Thought gives those felt patterns meaning. What else refers to an experiencer than a thought? And what else refers to a sense of me being a separate self than a thought?

Btw. I'm not saying that a thought or thinking can undo itself or that it could undo the underlying sense of being separate but somehow the attention can turn back towards the me-thoughts... If the mental habit of referring to "me" is seen (not by the me, this is not a practice) then simultaneously that constricted sense becomes meaningless, nothing. It might be blissful even, without the belief in the thoughts which have referred to the sense calling it "me".

Edited by K.O. Ok
A simple comma can change a whole sentence (the last one)
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